Godscogs ISO Hubs Aug 31, 2009

This took me a second to gather what was going on. I talk a lot about innovation on this blog and I personally when I see someone try something new, it really gets me stoked! Now, I’ve never seen a lacing pattern like this. I’m not saying it doesn’t exist, just stating that I’ve never seen it. If you have, by all means, share it with us!

Gods Cogs are ISO 6-bolt cogs with an interesting spin on lacing. The wheel shown here is 32h lacing, 12-8-12. The production runs will be 36h, 12-12-12 lacing. The hub is laced to a Dodici rim.

Ok, all you industrial design / engineering heads, lemme know if you think this will be stronger than a 36h wheel laced 4x!

Really rad idea. Keep it up guys!

  • ario

    The following has been swiped off of a bicycle design blog on a triple flanged fsa road hub:
    I have been meaning to say something about these FSA RD-600 wheels for a long time, but it is one of the many topics that I just never got around to posting about. You see, I like FSA and I think they make really good products. I have an FSA crankset on my cross bike and I am very happy with it. Still, when I first saw these wheels with triple flange hubs and spokes in the center, I was a bit skeptical. We all know that spoked wheels work under tension. Basically, spokes from one side of the hub pull the rim to oppose the force from the spokes on the opposite side. So what are these spokes in the middle really doing? I don’t see how they really can contribute to the lateral structural integrity of the wheel. FSA claims that, by tucking a third of the spokes in line with the rim, they are sheltered from airflow and create a more aerodynamic wheel. I don’t doubt that, but is there a trade off? I guess my real question is this; is this concept a true innovation or just a marketing gimmick to differentiate FSA’s product from the masses of road wheels on the market?

    Recently, I saw someone with a set of these wheels on a ride, so I asked how he liked them. His response was not favorable. Among other things, he said that the wheels do not stay true. Of course, that is just one person’s opinion. I have not ridden these wheels myself so I cannot speak first hand as to how they work. I do think that FSA has a well-deserved good reputation, so I do not believe that they would release a product that doesn’t work well. As I said before, I am skeptical, but curious about these wheels. If any of you have ridden or currently ride these wheels, let me know what you think about them.

    The article can be found on this page: http://bicycledesign.blogspot.com/2006/09/how-many-flanges-are-on-your-hub.html

  • CT Justin

    FSA made a road wheel like this a few years RD800


  • Bender

    The answer is NO it won’t be any stronger, if anything the wheel will be weaker laterally. Looks pretty funky but it’s just being different for the sake of it.

  • jonnyneedledick

    butt fugly

  • well… damn. I stand corrected.

    But seriously, be polite people! I know someone has something good to say about them.

  • gottagroove

    I own this wheelset. I am a professional bike mechanic (BBI Trained) and have ridden these as well as many other wheelsets on my bikes and find them very stiff laterally. I am 220 lbs and they are one of the better climbing wheelsets I have ridden as far as rigidity. They have been a great set of wheels and I have experienced less problems with them than I have some other high end wheelsets I own.

  • Al

    I am a mechanical engineer with fifteen years of machine design experience, mostly tool & die shops and aerospace. I read the description of the three-flange hub on the web site.

    Torsional Rigidity – The ability to transmit torque comes from the cross lacing of the spokes. The spokes in a typical wheel are not that far off the vertical to begin with. Do a little vector addition, you are not really gaining much by moving a third of the spokes into the vertical plane. But you certainly are GIVING UP ONE THIRD of your lateral load carrying capacity. Who would give up a third of their lateral strength to gain a minuscule bit of extra torque capacity? Certainly nobody who does tricks or plays polo.

    Latitudinal Stiffness – He says, “The center spokes are un-distracted by side loads”. Again, even at eight degrees off the vertical, the spokes in a traditional wheel are not all that distracted by side loads to begin with. Add up the force vectors. It’s nothing.

    The best way to increase torsional rigidity and lateral load capacity is with a taller flange on the hub. The taller flange serves to increase spoke angles in all directions.

    Triangulation – The triangulation that he talks about is meaningless if the members cannot be loaded in compression. Spokes are never loaded in compression. The triangulation argument is bogus. He says, “2 x triangulations occur…”. Hugh? What?

    Aerodynamics – Anyone who would actually care about the extra wind resistance created by twelve spokes is not running a 32 or 36 or even a spoked wheel to begin with.

    And of course there is the extra weight of the third flange. Lets look at the design of the hub itself. Lets say, for the sake of argument, that there was some benefit to the third flange. A flange that carries a lot of spokes needs to be beefy. A flange that carries the load of only twelve spokes can afford to be thinner. He’s got three beefy flanges on there. With a nice fat fillet radius on the center flange, you know, to help with all those side loads.

    I’m looking at my bookshelf right now. This guy did not have the same undergraduate experience that I did. I wish I had a room full of machine tools to play with. I could work on some of my inventions.

    I need a CNC lathe.

  • There was a bmx or perhaps botique-mtb company that made similar hubs a while back. Pineapple hubs? Maybe? I’m not sure.

    One of the things about fixed gears is that wider flanges and undished wheels make for stronger wheels. That’s why Campagnolo never made duplex-style hubs, I’m told. But from there we can infer that a central flange doesn’t *add* strength.

  • Craig G

    I love how people jump to conclusions on wheels. I have a set of twisted spoke wheels which were built up purely for the look and to do something differentish, forums and people with no actual real life facts said they would fail after a few rides, always fall out of true and snap spokes.
    – In my actual experience they have been perfect for coming up 2 1/2 years of riding most days a week, never trued them, never broken a spoke, and they actually feel more solid than the standard traditional wheel sets I have had built… So my point is, I don’t think we can pull directly across the assumptions and opinions put forward in the FSA example.
    These wheels run on the same 3 flange principals but they look to be built heaps beefier – those FSA’s look like I’d taco them after a day of riding. They have 23 or 36 spokes rather than the 18 on the FSA’s so I would expect them to build up stronger and last longer.
    I am stoked to see someone not just trying to reproduce a set of Phils or something I think these things look sweet, keen as to see a REAL review of a build.
    When are they available? and how much?

  • 3 dudes

    What the fuck! did anyone else notice the fucking name? Gods Cogs! Lets be serious now!

  • Craig C

    AL, with all your knowledge you say you have you could actually do something you know… with your experience you would know that you don’t need a room full of machine tools to kick something off.

  • Adam

    Some of us do stuff, others claim they could if only… I dont have a book shelf let alone some books or a CNC, just a crap little lathe and a crap little drill press and a set of mic’s. Engineers have been spectacularly wrong before and so have i but i’m off this key board giving it a go. The prototypes you see are a little chunky given what i had to work with. The prod. units are coming off a CNC and have been slimmed down and refined. The triple design makes less sense to me(but i could be wrong) when squashed into a heavily dished road or mtb hub running a cassette. The proof is in the riding if in fact you do ride. Keep an eye on the website Craig G, about 2 weeks, send me an inquiry i’ll keep you posted.

  • Mr poopypants

    Nothing positive or negative is needed to be said. The triple flange wheels are no longer in FSAs’ catalog. That speaks volumes. If the idea worked, it would have stuck around. Mind you, there is always more than one way to do something, like twisted spokes. Nothing wrong with them, other than aesthetics.

  • I am under the impression that the more you cross spokes when lacing, the stronger the wheel, because then the spokes share and better distribute loads and impacts. It is difficult to tell from the pix, but by creating a third flange down the middle, and moving some of the available spokes to that flange, you subsequently reduce the number of times spokes cross or touch each other, therefore, creating a weaker wheel because individual spokes will be forced to endure the loads and impacts. So in answer to Mr. Watson’s question, I do not believe it would be stronger than a 36h 4 cross. But again, it’s difficult to see the cross pattern from the pix posted on this site. We need to get Jobst Brandt on this blog. He could answer all our questions.

  • Matt

    I dig the crows foot lacing on the outer flanges. The way I understand it is the crossing spokes serve to transmit torque from the hub through the spokes to the rim, and the radial spokes add lateral strength because there is no angle to distract from holding the hub in plane with the rim. Al, you seem to know what’s up…what do you make of my analysis?

  • Interesting design, certainly would make it simpler to keep a wheel radially true (lace up center flange first). My problem is, I’m not sure the benefits are worth the cost. I don’t think anyone will argue that this design is stronger than a 24h (by definition, it has to be, it’s a 24h+). Is it equivalent to a 48h? Probably not. In terms of strength, it’s falls somewhere in a window around (note, I said not in) 32-36h (but so does a Cane Cree 28h Track V). However, from a pure numbers point of view, if strength is what you’re looking for you would probably get more benefits for costs by jumping to a 48h.

    Note, “costs” as I use the term is not solely $$$. It’s also weight, service hassle factor, loss of other desirable characteristics (lateral stability).

    However, often, skill of the wheel builder is as important as choice of components. This may increase the skill of the wheel builder because they can nail radial and deal with lateral separately.

    Ultimately, it depends on one’s purpose for the wheel. There are certainly purposes for this one.

    PS – I’m an engineer, but Chemical rather than Mechanical, so feel free to take my comments with a grain of salt.

  • I was gonna say something about these but its mostly already been said, the center flange will not add any torsional strength nor will it help resist latitudinal loads on the wheel. This isn’t an issue of engineering vs innovation, this is pure geometry and physics.

    That being said, I have to say it looks pretty nifty and I would imagine it would hold up decently to a deep dish, triple walled rim like the dodici or b43. I would keep it away from other rims especially on a rear because it essentially turns the wheel into a 24h rim with 8 points of latitudinal weakness where there are no spokes pulling horizontally.

  • I have a set of those FSA wheels they work just fine, and they actually look kind of cool. I’ve had them trued once or twice over the course of a couple years. they are now just my back up wheels though.

  • benjamin g.

    From what I have read in wheel building books hybrid crows foot is one of the strongest patterns possible. Twisted spoke patterns do serve a purpose more than aesthetics. The pattern makes a wheel almost feel soft and/or “sticky”. Making it very useful in trial cycling or riding involving large hops to and stand still on one wheel. I’m just trying to clear things up to the best of my knowledge. I’m not engineer of 15 years, hell I’m only 22 haha. Just a bunch of good old riding:)