Back to Basics Nov 15, 2008

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I am tired of my Deep V’s. After riding them for almost 4 years, I’ve had enough. When I was looking for new rims, Drew from Milwaukee recommended the 700c Sun-Ringle Equalizer 23‘s. They’re a box-section 29′r rim with eyeleted spoke holes, welded seams [Velocity's are pinned, not welded], no braking surface [!] and much lighter [almost half as light] than most deep-section rims. Add Profile fixed hubs to the equation and you’re rolling on a solid wheelset ideal for trick riding. The Price? About $60 per rim. You can ride your normal tires on these too. They’re no wider than any other 700c rim.

After riding them at the banks in Greenpoint last night, I noticed a huge difference. They handle better, feel much more solid and corner much tighter. The only comparison I can make were the wheels on my old Higgins path racer. Resilion track hubs to Mavic MA2′s. After doing some 180′s and other moves that put a great amount of lateral stress on the wheel, I’m certain that they’ll hold up well.

People always tell me that a “deeper rim is stronger”. That’s bullshit. If that were the case, DH MTBs, BMXs and other bikes that take nasty drops and other forces would be rolling on a deep section rim. Everyone doing anything on a bike where your wheels leave the ground often is usually on a box-section.

Hopefully more and more people will see this and begin to rock lighter, more durable wheels and not just focus on color-matching their rims to their grips.

I’m 100% sold on these wheels and will keep you posted on how well they hold up. Sorry for the shitty indoor picture. It’s been raining a lot!

thanks James for the correction on the rim model…

  • kris

    I’ve always loved box section rims over deep v or hplus son or any of that shit.
    Looks solid; I imagine they’ll hold up pretty well.

  • Jon

    Thanks for the recommendation. I’ve been on the lookout for a new wheelset and with your help I think I found the winner.

    Just curious though, how come you’re tired of Deep-V’s? Is it the way they feel or because everyone rides them? Or you just wanted something better?

    Thanks.

    Ps. Any recommendations for an online retailer that sells these? Having a tough time searching for a decent deal.

  • http://theradavist.com prolly

    I got tired of Deep Vs because they’re heavy, always going out of true and I just thought they were losing their durability. Granted they’ve lasted for 4 years and I thought at the time they were more durable. My riding’s changed a lot within the past year or so. I guess equipment changes as well. Part of evolution.

    I’ll talk to Drew about selling them at Milwaukee online. If you google, you find this, although I’m not sure if they’re 700c.

    Your LBS should be able to order them as well.

  • http://thaipeopledontusechopsticks.com PTK

    It’s called an open pro. look into it and fuck your deep section garbage. eyeleted, welded, true and correct from the factory, not warped, pressed and lame ass. Velocity rims are great for the winter when you absolutely don’t care about your shit. As far as the sunringle joints go, rock them til you hate on them too and just ride some proven quality.

  • http://theradavist.com prolly

    Nah. I’ve broken a few open pros just riding without even doing a trick. I had some laced up to Phils and was always breaking spokes and / or cracking them. They’re really flexy, and not nearly as rigid when laced as these Suns are concerned.

    Also, open Pros are not a XC rim. OP’s are not meant for anything other than riding. Even with the newer OP’s, just about every wheel builder I know says they suck. Shotty consistency, loose bits of metal within the rim, cracked eyelets and other factory flaws that are unacceptable.

    I have 3 year old OP CD’s on my Merckx and I wouldn’t trust them with anything other than a good rim to just ride. I’ve yet to knock them out of true, but then again, I’m just riding them on training rides. Completely different feel from the Sun Ringles. “Proven Quality” may be true for the old rims, but not the new shit Mavic is making.

    I’m not completely understanding your angle, but I think you’re way off here. As a person who has run both, I’ll say the Sun Ringles will hold up for tricks more than open pros will. I suggest you try a pair before you “hate”.

  • http://www.squarebuilt.com krilly manilli

    hpplusson for the win!

  • nickinwi

    idk man, OPs are the fukken bomb.

    everything ive gotten has rocked since the beginning.

    sounds like your wheelbuilders pretty shoddy.

    not hatin, just sayin.

  • http://www.openbicycle.com joshua

    I have to agree with prolly- mavic has been focusing so much on their system wheels that their regular hoops’ quality has gone to shit. every OP i build has issues- comes like a limp taco shell out of the box.

    29′er XC rims offer a lot for urban FG riding, freestyle or not- durability is key. I’d also hype the salsa delgados and sun cr-18s (cheap, shiny, and strong as hell) sun does most stuff poorly, but they do a few rims spot-on. the ds-1 xc’s aren’t bad- the construction, a prolly pointed out, is of high quality- keep us informed!

  • http://toreportanemergency.blogspot.com James

    Those look like some nice wheels, but I think the rims are Sun Ringle Equalizer 23′s.

    I don’t think they make the DS1-XC in a 29er/700c model. Milwaukee has the Equalizer 23 in stock, but they’re about $60 (and, based upon some quick Googling, that’s how much they go for everywhere else).

  • http://exercisecompassion.com GregStraightEdge

    That shallow rim makes your nipple look like it belongs on Farrah Fawcett.

  • http://zlog-blog.blogspot.com Zlog

    Good write-up. Taylor just tossed his Deep V’s for similar rims. I got deja vu while reading it.

  • Andrew

    I ran a finite element analysis on the two in Solidworks. Given the rim is made out of the same material (which I assume they’re not) a deep V will be ~100% stronger with vertical load and 20% ~stronger with lateral load, but about 50% heavier. I assume they use different materials though, and I didn’t factor in the welded vs. pinned connection.

  • http://theradavist.com prolly

    Greg Edge, mmmm nipples!

    James, it’s hard to say, Drew told me they were the DS1-XCs when he sent them to me and that they do make them in 700c. But they say Equalizer 23 on them, so until Drew can varify, I’m just really confused. But since they do say Equalizer 23 on them, so I’ll edit the post… thanks!

    Nickinwi: I have the one of the best Wheel builders in NYC building my rims. Arone was in numerous magazines and builds a hell of a wheel. The Open Pros just fell off. Miguel at Affinity built this wheel and he’s also one of the best.

    Andrew: Interesting, but did you factor in moment vs. welded connections and eyeleted spoke holes?

    Zach: thanks man.

  • http://nonothimtheotherguy.wordpress.com ben

    I love OP’s, but I will defer to the likes of you, the Tom’s and the rest of the bike tricksters on what works for you. It’s pretty difficult to think that a 29′r hoop would be built for anything other than taking punishment. I’ll be they serve you well.

  • Andrew

    John: No, that would have turned the whole deal from a time-waster-to-avoid-meeting-this-chica-for-coffee (TWTAMTCFC) into a multi-hour-project (MHP). I’m not even sure how I’d simulate the weld vs. pin, and I’d have to get really heavy into coefficients of friction for different materials and detailed spoke designs/dimensions. Like I said before, I assume the biggest difference is in choice of materials, followed by eyeleted holes and welding.

    Either way, nice wheels. Way more character than the Deep V’s that are spreading like VD.

  • Mattias

    Is it 32 or 36 spoke holes?

  • http://prollyisnotprbably.com prolly

    32…

    I’ve been Snobbed Again

    haha

  • Jack

    I don’t think you can say point-blank that deep section rims aren’t stronger and use as the only argument to support this claim, the fact that BMXers and DH riders use box section rims. For one thing, the widths of the rims people use for those things are much wider than any 700c rim. And often times, the construction is completely different: a lot of BMX rims are triple-walled (though these days, people are into saving weight, of course, so that trend is on the way out if it isn’t out entirely). Also, the number of spokes and the spacing between them (even when the number is the same) is different–vastly different if you’re comapring 700c to 20″. And finally, the circumfrence is different, which affects rotating resistance and a bunch of other stuff.

    It’s kind of like comparing apples and oranges in a sense. Even if you’re jumping around and stuff on a fixed gear bike, you’re riding in a different way. I’ve seen Prolly ride. He doesn’t leave the ground that much, certainly not nearly as much as you would on a BMX bike–and that’s not in any way meant as a “diss” on him; it’s meant to illustrate the point that one simply rides differently on a fixed gear–and i’ll posit that this holds true even with someone like Tom from Philly, who I think of in some ways as the archetypical usta-ride-BMX-and-you-can-see-it-in-every-trick fixed kid. A different kind of bike simply is able to get higher off the ground, takes less coordination and effort to get off the ground, and when it comes back to the ground (again, because of the smaller wheel circumfrence) the impact is distributed over a wider area of rim, since the wheel is spinning at a higher RPM relative to the speed the bike is traveling.

    I’m no rimologist, okay, but it just doesn’t sit well with me to claim that, as a categorical statement, deep section rims aren’t as strong as box section rims–especially when the claim has neither been verified by one’s own practice nor been supported by evidence from the concrete experience of others. One thing I do know is that as a basic principle in architecture, an arch (as opposed to two walls and a ceiling) is supposed to be the far stronger design. As far as rims, I think an awful lot depends on how you ride, the circumfrence of the rim, the number, type and pattern of spokes, and pro-bab-ly a bunch of other stuff that i don’t have a firm enough grasp on (nor enough of a desire to experience cycling only via online forums and never on an actual bicycle) to really elaborate further on.

    let the rim wars rage on,
    one of those kids who rode bmx for a long time

  • http://theradavist.com prolly

    Actually, when you need both lateral stability and vertical load you use a square tube in Architecture, not a W-section [I-beam]. Depth is good for point loads.

    Depth isn’t good for lateral loads. A box-section is. Say you land a 180 a little sideways, a shorter, stronger section will hold up better than one that’s deep. Deep V’s were designed to be “aero” not “strong”.

  • shu

    a few thoughts to add:

    one factor in wheel strength that most don’t notice is actually spoke length – as well as spoke count. generally, a wheel with shorter spokes is stiffer and perhaps stronger. think leverage. wheels with deep-section rims and hi-flange hubs would use shorter spokes.

    the cross-section of most ATB disc-specific rims is actually almost half- round.

    fashion aside, it was my understanding that deep-section rims were designed with aerodynamics in mind, which may make them Faster (at speed), but heavier. more material may add strength.

    and the OP has indeed gotten poopy. The pair i built five years ago lasted forever – solid, rarely needed truing even riding as a messenger. the ones I’m seeing now just don’t last. dt swiss is making some sweet rims these days, though.

  • http://projekto-b.blogspot.com/ lyle

    Wow.. what a can of worms.

    I’m stoked to see that there are other nerds out there who recreate parts to model them in Solidworks. I’d also like to say that Proj-B was onto the 29er rim thing (Mavic A719) in 2006.

    Sorry, I don’t have anything new to add here that hasn’t already been said.

    My only concern (and its not even really a concern) is that under SEVERE impact (like casing a ledge… this is 700cmx after all) once you go past the absorbtion limit of your hybrid tires and the rim starts taking force, the hexagonal extrusion of the Equalizer may deflect. This may happen if the rim was not perpendicular to the ledge and one sidewall takes the brunt of the force, and it would result in the rim not being able to be trued radially. Of course, thats the sort of thing that happens to BMXers who ride light wheels.

    …and just for good measure, lets take a look at the extrusion of one of the most popular BMX rims ever, the Odyssey Hazard Lite:

    http://www.jensonusa.com/product/ri/RI402D00BLK__36.jpg

    Note the thick ass spoke bed, decreasing width sidewall, and triangulated box sections. This rim is designed for impacting.

    A rim does not have to be deep to be strong, but the material has to go somewhere. I cannot think of a 19mm wide rim as strong as the Deep V.

  • http://prollyisnotprbably.com prolly

    All I can say is; Time will tell. We can all sit here and argue back and forth about this, but my old front wheel [Profile to Deep V] went to complete shit in under 4 months. It cracked, dented and never stayed true for longer than a few weeks. That’s the front mind you. When I brought my new rim in to get laced, my wheelbuilder was saying that it’ll definitely be stronger than what I was riding.

  • matt

    Both of your rims are “box section”. All double wall rims are “box section”. As opposed to a single wall rim that is shaped like a U, a double walled rim is closed, just like your Deep V and Open Pro and every other quality rim on the market. Get your hands on a QBP catalog and see what I mean, they have cross sections of every rim they sell. Above all, ride and keep the rubber side down

  • http://theradavist.com prolly

    Matt,

    I’m aware of the technicality you pointed out. I am however using a broad categorical description and not such a literal cut and dry definition. All I am saying is people think “deeper” is stronger and I don’t buy it. I think construction techniques, materiality and profile are all characteristics that make up a strong rim.

    I’ve spent plenty of time looking through QBP at the different rims that companies make. I was looking initially at the Rhino Lites, the Delgados and others, but I don’t want to have to run a wider tire than I already am.

    As I said, we’ll see in 4 months how it’s held up. I completely trashed a Deep V in 4 months and I think that this rim will hold up better, just from the past few days riding on it.

  • mt

    I beat the crap out of my cxp30 mavics on my roadbike and built a set for my fixed… Over 2500 miles on my roadie and still true. As deep as a velocity and they’re welded. Just an idea for those who don’t feel like jumping on another bandwagon